I intended to post this article on the weekend, but due to the overwhelmingly good feedback so far i want to post it earlier.
Next part will be the SPGs and will likely come tomorrow. Whether i will follow up on it with an article about a possible wheeled vehicles i can’t say yet, it is however very likely. Also part 1 of the swedish Q&A will be posted on saturday and since so many questions came up on my last 2 articles i think of doing a Swiss Q&A again. And there are many other articles planned, so things won’t get boring considering i don’t get to lazy.
Disclaimer: I do not work for WG so i have no power in what they will add and what they do with the game, please don’t comment about such things.
Anyway, here is the TD line i have proposed to WG, enjoy.
Tier 3: 34M. Pz. K-41
This is what i believe to be the very first version of the NK I due to the fact that it’s an enlarged Panzer 39 chassis with a sheet metal turret. This may sound like nothing special unless you know that, in the very early years of the NK I, it was mentioned that a tank on the enlarged chassis of the Panzer 39 with sheet metal turret was to be converted to the NK I was we know it. This and various other mentions in the archive documents strongly suggest that the 34M. Pz. K-41 has actually been built.
It’s main intention was it to be a SPAAG/ TD hybrid for which it used the 34 mm Flab Kan 38.
However there were other guns proposed such as the 4.7 cm Infanterie Kanone 35/41 as well as the 7.5cm Motor Gebirgskanone 1938 L22.
Tier 4: Nahkampfkanone I Ausf. F1
The 7.5 cm gun armed version of the NK I unlike Ausf. F2, which was an open topped vehicle, F1 had a closed fighting compartment. It’s playstyle would be very similar to the German Marders.
Tier 5: G-13 mit 7.5cm Pak. 51
While the base vehicle is known as the Hetzer in WoT, this G-13 version, which i found in the archives, would have the same gun as the AMX 13 75. Whether it had an autoloader or if it was loaded by hand is not known, however it certainly would be able to hold up to other tier 5 TDs.
Tier 6: Nahkampfkanone II A “Gustav”
This oddly shaped TD would be a force to be reckoned with in World of Tanks, while the only built prototype has a “mere” 7.5 cm Pak L/49, it’s project life in the 40s was quite extensive. Multiple guns ( most of them mock ups) like 7.5 cm Pak L/73, 9cm Pak. L/60, 10.5 cm Pak L/60 and 15 cm HB 16 L/14 were mounted on this vehicle.
The NK II A in WoT would only mount all 7.5 cm guns and the 9cm gun and maybe the 15 cm gun for the lols.
Tier 7: Nahkamphkanone II B “Gustav 2”
Same as Nahkampfkanone II A, however II B would have a layer of 15mm spaced armor all over it’s frontal armor which was actually a real proposal back in 1946 in order to make the shape of the vehicle more even.
In addition, the tier 7 version would get the above mentioned 10.5 cm Pak. L/60
Tier 8: MOWAG Skorpion
To be honest, this is a vehicle where i barely know anything about as i’d have to look into the archives of MOWAG which i haven’t gotten access into yet. However one thing is for sure: It had paper for armor and a 9 cm gun.
Tier 9 Casemate TD: MOWAG HM-13 Gepard
It’s characteristics would be very similar to the Kanonenjagdpanzer, however it could mount the 105mm L7 gun.
Tier 9 Turreted TD: Meili WT
A rather “unique” vehicle. According to our sources at WG, a vehicle with such a suspension can be implemented and like the MOWAG Skorpion, not a lot is known, all we know is that it does mount a 105mm gun ( It also comes as a wheeled version).
Tier 10 Casemate TD: MOWAG Taifun
Everyone’s favourite Jagdpanzer IV on steroids, It would have very good mobility and camo rating as well as a quick firing gun. Talking about guns: It’s a modular tank so any gun could be added. The original project used the 105mm L7 but guns like the 120mm L11 could also be used.
Tier 10 Turreted TD: 10.5 cm PzK. 61 auf Panzer 51
To put it simply, it’s an AMX 13 Testbed with the Panzer 61’s main gun. While only a very crude drawing is available, it was a legit project as multiple archive sources do mention this project.
Also to finish this article off, thanks for _Chrueterchraft_ to share this with me.
36 thoughts on “A look at the potential swiss TD line”
Thanks for another great article. 🙂 Do you plan to combine all lines from articles into 1 full tree ?
now i am really mad cuz we do not have this in game and wg plans to put first clone lines again
what do you mean by “put first clone lines again?” Not that wargaming has never sold tank clones before but I can’t figure out what clone lines you’re talking about if they are already in the game or being planned to be put in?
well you want to talk about the chinese soviet clones that that are in the game or about the jap heavy science fiction line (high tiers)?
or maybe you want to talk about the incoming polish tanks that will contain a lot of soviet clones or maybe the italian tree that has high tier american or german clones ?
take your pick
Nice read this one, I like the Swiss TD line… well, all of them really – hopefully we’ll get a proper tree soon.
Any idea how the Mieli WT would actually look? I have a hard time imagining a vehicle based on that drawing tbh.
MOWAG Skorpion also seems tad underpowered for tier 8 with 9cm gun, no?
well there also is the AT-15 which seems to do allright, problem here is: all the other substitutes have a 90mm gun, and there are a few.
couldn’t the 90mm candidates be balanced based on standard ammo choice? afterall the tier 10 turreted candidate also “only” mounts a 105mm gun that will probably fire APCR, typical glass cannons with mobility and RoF, basically a top tier Hellcat, isn’t it enough?
Nice article, very interesting concepts.
Is there another candidate for tier 8 casemate TD? Would be rather awkward to actually put turreted TD (after full casemate) in tier 8 only to be changed into a casemate again in 9.
well there is, It would require me to get rid of the 2 turreted TDs, make the AMX 13 TD a tier 8 premium and make the current tier 8 premium candidate a normal tier 8 casemate TD.
I can’t quite follow you?
If you have a tier 8 casemate candidate, you can just make it a standard tank so the tree splits at tier 8 instead of tier 9?
He doesn’t want to give up premium tanks, AMX.
Thanks again for this nice article and its discoveries 🙂
Lot of questions again :
1) Do you consider the MOWAG Cheetah as the same tank as the MOWAG Gepard?
2) What about the MOWAG Pirat?
3) Taifun II is too recent?
4) The turreted MOWAG maquette is too recent too? –> http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/07/09/swiss-tanks-part-3-modern-tank-destroyers/
5) Isn’t the 10.5 cm PzK. 61 auf Panzer 51 just a TX light tank?
Thanks for the time you take to explore the Swiss tanks ! As you know, i became fan of them 🙂
I asked about it before, a few months ago when Mizutayio started writting here about swiss military history, the answer was something like waiting for Vollketten to release info first/as soon as he had enough info about it
now I wonder if he is ready to write about it or is still waiting for Vollketten
Tiafun II merely had axtra armor, not enough to make any difference though, Gepard and cheetah are the same tank, MOWAg Pirat is in the light tank line, The turreted MOWAG tank you saw there wasn’t MOWAG, it was part of the NKPz MBT program.
And i doubt that AMX 51 with Panzerkanone 61 will be a light tank as it lack the conventional turret.
What kind of turret does it have?
I totally agree with you on the fact that the Panzer 51 with Panzerkanone 61 shouldn’t be a Light tank. In fact, considering that the standard AMX 13 HP/t ratio is far from being great (around 17 HP/t indeed), with such a big gun, It would be even worse ! And considering that, as you said, it’s a test bed, I would easily imagine the turret turning being as slow as a turreted TD..
IMHO, It would be perfect as a tier 8 premium TD. What are your thoughts on that guys ? 🙂
And regarding the espected hard stats of it, am I right or wrong Mizutayio?
I feel I would go for the Taifun first. In the whole Swiss line should it be added. Time will tell. Thanks again for these Swiss tank proposals
No tier II?
Outstanding stuff mate. I think this TD line would be better than even the HT line. It sure would be good if WG would take it on just for the varity of tanks.
Hey, i was wondering if you could look over something me and a few friends drew up for a french medium tank line.
It would make it so that one meh t8 light doesnt lead to 3 tanks, but only 2, and it would be strictly a medium tank line, from t5-10 instead of a light line that plays nothing like its t9 and 10 counter parts.
we tried to keep it strictly single shot guns but well, i dont have access to national archives for the french, anyways, can you let me know if you are interested, i can drop the link, or pm it to you.
Hey, I also got a clear idea of a med line for the french myself.. ! So I’m really wondering what is your proposal ! Can you cite me the tanks here in comments please ?? 🙂
You can always PM me or join the RsR discord channel and PM me there. https://discord.gg/YXehpgK
I’ll take a look at your Article and if the others and I think it’s worth posting, we’ll post it.
Great read and awesome articles, and I am crossing all my available fingers for this all to become reality in WOT without some major fcukups fom WG side!
How do you balance taifun compared to swed TD?
Same thing as the swedish TD, however it won’t get the siege mode as it’s a conventinal casemate TD, however it would have even less armor and the sloping wouldn’t bounce a single shot. So it’s gonna be hard to play if you’re not experienced.
Amazing stuff you got here Mizutayio! 🙂
But I also find it a bit odd that the tier 8 is the Skorpion ! Heavy casemate, then super Light turreted ? And then again casemate but Light ? A bit unconsistent don’t you think ? :/
Also I personally think that sadly the tier 9 and 10 turreted TDs are too much of paper projects to have their own line.. And also, can’t they be much more usefull elsewhere ?
Like, I think the 10.5 cm PzK. 61 auf Panzer 51 would perfectly fine as a tier 8 premium TD (if the gun is a 105 mm L7, as I suppose?), because to balance the gun its mobility will be pretty meh since (as you may know) the IRL AMX 13s engines were far less powerfull than those retarded tons of lies WG put in them recenctly..
And, can’t the Meili WT be better as the tier 10 wheeled vehicule? It’s just an idea, since I don’t know what are your plans regarding this line of -maybe- future class!
Oh my, oh my. Autoloader hetzer! \(*o*)/
No indeed it’s not possible it had autoloader… :/ There a reason why the turret is oscillating on the AMX 13.. That’s because the barillets take all space in it : https://www.google.si/search?q=amx+13+barillet&client=ms-android-hms-vf-fr&prmd=ivmn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj36OHpzfnTAhVCQJoKHVLTDRMQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=qB89uxGKcAP1LM:
Hm, that’s very interesting, thanks for letting us know.
However, even though it couldn’t have one IRL if it was fited, it would still make a neat and interesting tier 5 tank destroyer to make up for it’s lackluster mobility.
Yeah, sure, it would still be a pretty neat TD at tier 5… Because the pen WG gave to the 75 mm SA50 (AMX 13’s gun) is not really right… indeed it must more like 156 mm pen @100 m. So yeah, with good soft stats, it would be a really decent TD! 😉
I mean, with this pretty good pen for tier 5, their no needs for this gun to be autoloading.. I think the good pen will be enough to make it a good TD! 🙂
Oh my! The Ricola premium rounds won’t set fires, it will freeze the enemies!
LOL….. I wonder if every time you select that round there is the Ricola!!!! call and horn?
😀 well good Idea