Author: Sonoda_Kotori
Such issue was first pointed out two days ago when I posted the datamined results of Gaijin’s slope effect modifiers on a Chinese WT forum. Commenters below my post quickly noticed that the APDS shots have a sketchy penalty curve. To understand such issue, we must first have a look inside Gaijin Entertainment LLC’s black magic of how their slope modifiers work: Here are some extracted codes from damagemodel.blk:
"slopeEffect0deg": [0.0,20.0],
"slopeEffect5deg": [5.0,17.0],
"slopeEffect10deg": [10.0,15.0],
"slopeEffect15deg": [15.0,10.24],
"slopeEffect20deg": [20.0,7.2],
"slopeEffect25deg": [25.0,3.72],
"slopeEffect29deg": [29.0,2.76],
"slopeEffect30deg": [30.0,2.46],
"slopeEffect35deg": [35.0,2.24],
"slopeEffect40deg": [40.0,2.064],
"slopeEffect45deg": [45.0,1.8],
"slopeEffect50deg": [50.0,1.4],
"slopeEffect55deg": [55.0,1.2],
"slopeEffect60deg": [60.0,1.024],
"slopeEffect65deg": [65.0,1.0],
"slopeEffect70deg": [70.0,1.0],
"slopeEffect75deg": [75.0,1.0],
"slopeEffect80deg": [80.0,1.0],
"slopeEffect85deg": [85.0,1.0],
"slopeEffect90deg": [90.0,1.0]The [X, Y] values in the brackets are where magic happens: X value determines the angle of the armor (0 degrees meant that the shell is parallel to the armor plate, while 90 degrees indicate a perfectly flat plate. This value basically means how many degrees off from parallel is the shell with the plate.), while the Y value determines the penetration penalty to such slope. For example, an APDS shot undergoes a penetration decay of 2.46 times when it hits a plate that’s angled 60 degrees, or 30 degrees away from the parallel position. Pretty logical, huh? Let’s see it in action.
For example, the 10m penetration of Royal Ordnance L7’s DM13 APDS at a vertical plate (90 degrees against the angle of incidence, 0 degrees construction slope) is 303mm. At 30 degrees against the AoI, such calculation kicks in:
"slopeEffect30deg": [30.0,2.46]The shell undergoes a penetration decay of 2.46 times as stated before, therefore, DM13 APDS can penetrate 303÷2.46=123mm of rolled homogeneous armor angled at 30 degrees from 10m away. Pretty logical, eh? Not when the shell hits it one degree off. In actual combat, the angle will vary due to suspension, terrain, ballistic curves of the shot, and most importantly, angling. Therefore, it’s extremely rare that one can penetrate a perfectly 60 degrees armor plate. T-54, for example, has a UFP of 100mm with a construction angle of 60 degrees, which equals to 30 degrees against the AoI. According to the stat card above, DM13 APDS can penetrate such plate all the way up to 2km away, a historical figure that has multiple real-life examples to back it up. It all looks “historical”, right? Wrong. What Gaijin did not show, is what happens to the slope penalty after 30 degrees AoI. Most shells in the game have a subtle curve that goes up by 5 degrees, but APDS is an exception. After 30 degrees AoI, we find an extra entry in the code:
"slopeEffect29deg": [29.0,2.76]Yes, just one degree off, and your penetration penalty increases from 2.46 times to 2.76 times! That means if a T-54 angles itself for only one degree, your L7’s APDS would have just barely penetrated it from 1km away. At 1.5km, it can only eat through 93mm out of the 100mm found on typical Soviet armor.
Right after 30 degrees AoI, the curve took a sharp turn and heads toward the eternity of Russian Bias. At 25 degrees AoI (Which happened to be a construction angle of 65 degrees, also typical on Russian tanks like IS-6), the penalty skyrockets to 3.72 times. When facing IS-6’s 100mm UFP angled at 25 degrees AoI, its penetration dropped to a whopping 81.5mm. Yes, a post-war shell designed to kill T-54s from 2km away, cannot penetrate an abandoned tank project in the forties! Ironic enough, Gaijin introduced this mechanism in 2015, with the hope of bringing more realism to the game, while denying the most basic historical facts that players submitted in bug reports for three times in 2015 and 2017, all proving this BS penetration curve is wrongfully wrong! Gameplaywise, the heaviest users of APDS are everyone but USSR, while the nation with mostly thick, 60-65deg UFPs are—you guessed it, USSR. So, I posted it on the WT subreddit, backed by the calculations done by the Chinese forum users (Asian math, da) and the confirmation of a well-known dataminer, u/_mike10d. In just one day, my post gained 400+ upvotes and nearly 300 comments, with the community outrage that was about to be brought to the game’s official forum. The forum post currently has 6 pages of discussion.
eggsdee
Thanks for posting this and spreading the issue, and stay tuned for more future “omg gaijin screwed up” articles if they keep on happening!
Wow you cry because of such a small issue ? This is a joke compared to WG’s made up 25%+- RNG. An 340mm pen shell at 100m can get 255mm pen just for the lols.
And you all cry for 8mm Armorpen less at 1,5km ?
WoT is an arcade game, not a simulator, and btw it has been proven in the past that WT also uses RNG, it’s just that the range is much smaller and not as noticeable, think about it, why is it that sometimes a 20mm shells only causes sparks and other times cuts the wing in half? same for .50cal, do you truly belive the game calculates the dozens of individual paths simultaneously? and updates your client fast enough to no cause lag?
This is a big problem, this isn’t just about the pen. THIS is about gaijin purposely hiding problems that would hinder their reputation. This has happend to me in the M60A1 where two shots in a row at point blank have bounced then the third penetrates because i moved forward not even an inch. This STILL happens at the ranges we see in WT. it is clear it favors the russian tanks because of their armor angles. NOT saying it is some sort of bias towards russia but it is a problem that denies real life ballistics.
Ofc they give advantages to Russian Tanks because their most players are Russians. Thats how democracy works, make the most happy.
WG does the same shit with 25+- RNG, it makes the game tomatoe friendly by shifting the involvement from the players skill to total random. That’s why most skilled players and this WGLeague players leave WoT and go for games like PUBG, where theres no rigged system.
In the comming years you will see the tomatoes follow the skilled players and leave WoT. This Ship is going down like the MS Olympic if WG will not reduce this RNG bullshit.
But the tomatoes will not follow the skilled players because they feel gimped or limited by WG, no they will follow with the simple concept:
” Im a much better player than my stats say hunhunhun I will go play that new game you all play and show this so called skilled players my true potential hunhunhun”
They are very simple minded creatures, I met a lot of them insulting me after lost matches. Most of the time im a Tier or two lower than them, dealing 2-4k dmg and losing a match. And then they dare to write me and insult me, looking at what that animals do reveals 500-1000 dmg in Tier 9-10, looking at their stats reveals 48% and below. I don’t get this creatures, it’s written in the matchresults that I played multiple times better than it, in a lower tier Tank and it fucking dare to write me and insult me ?!?! What ?
WG is transparent about this and Gaijin hides it in the codes. Major difference.
how can someone defend what has no defense, so most players are russian, so what? players all around the world buy their content and the least they expect is that if they do things right they then get results, regardless of which vehicle they are using, now knowing this we know that no matter how much effort you put to be in a situation to your advantage there will always be something holding you back
just take a look at the hullbreak mechanic, why was it introduced? because of the many examples of soviet milk-tucks being hit by large caliber HE/APHE/APCBC-HE shells and often seeing the damage blocked by simple wood
I just can’t understand how can someone put deliberately giving advantage to vehicles of one nation as less serious of an issue of existing RNG, it’s true that WoT RNG should be lower like it is in WoWs but every single uses RNG, including WT, and PUBG in particular also has a lot of problems due to inconsistent DMs directly influenced by RNG
btw if you think e-sports teams leaving WG-League is directly connected to RNG you are wrong, recently WG has made changes to the E-sports format to make it closer to what the players usually encounter on a daily basis, so that they can create a culture in WoT players of watching WG-League as much as they go on Youtube and watch a replay or a video on WoT, of course the change in format made it needed to get more players per team which means more work to coordinate them during a match and that is not that desirable
even knowing all of that the main reason of them leaving WG-League to PUBG is probably due to format, tanks are still not as popular as normal FPS games and PUBG had such a fast expansion in 2017 that it attracted lots of attention from everyone, afterall PUBG is like a CS with much more freedom given to the players while it still depends a lot on luck to find the best gear, and due to the use of RNG not only for the DM but also the drops you cannot say that someone left WoT for PUBG due to not having problems with RNG because they are there as well
Yes, ±5% (or 10 tops!) would have been a more reasonable pen RNG, all things considered.
I must say I am not surprised especially when it comes to bug reports getting “left in the dust” because it has happened for several other things reported in the forum:
>>Japanese tanks modelling errors
>>Japanese vehicles incomplete loadouts (in the last Q&A they said there’s no other shells to add when we know the data has been sent to them)
>>american 90mm guns performance (they are also underperforming in WoT but it is an undestandable balance decision since the 90mm M3 appears first at tier 6 and not tier 8 with the Pershing)
>>american shells ballistic properties (this affects germans and japanese as well)
>>post-war shells developed and used for their guns (90mm, 105mm L7 copy/M68, 120mm, etc)
>>etc…
one I’ve seen recently seen resolved was the ammo belt for the japanese 37mm automatic cannon Ho-203, they finally gave it a proper belt that can finally pen medium tanks from above, as submitted in a bug report
Now to expose WG fucking up. Aka still selling e25, buffing soviet meds, selling skill ammo, Liberte, Patriot, Defender, Chrystler GF, castrating Bulldog, making armor obsolete, making tier X LT obsolete, fucking up MM tier 8+, World of Premium Tanks so on and so forth
she did call out WG for plagiarism two days ago.
Oh you people calling gold rounds “skill ammo”…its so cute.
Are you the “I have 400 pen on a tier X tank in AP so I need 450 on premium rounds” guy? Or the one in a tier 7 top, match using nothing else but skill.. ops i mean Premium Ammo guy?
Yeah, but those are last year’s news. We’re focusing on 2018 problems right now
At least skill ammo is available for credits. WarThunder crew skills on the highest level are gold only!
it’s entirely different when one company claims to be the most realistic in the market and the other claims to have a fun and easy to play arcade game, if you say your game is more realistic, and even use that to make fun of the competition (2014 inflatable tanks with HP bars joke in Aprils 1st event), then you cannot pull such underhanded sh*t moves like this one
furthermore there’s a huge difference between adding premiums that are OP at their tier and adding several pay-to-win vehicles/mechanics in your game (B1 Ter, “decorations, crew system, etc…)
Thank fuck I still play the shitiest tank game in the world to get my daily Tank action…
WT planes are mostly fine and can we now get back at all the shit WarGaming did wrong in the last 5 days?
Since well, as you said… we all already know about this issue…
Hopefully they change something about it though…
And a thing everyone wants tp deny about WT is that a LOT has been made better in the last 2 years. Something that CANNOT be said about WOT…
With that I mean, we all know wierd shit happens in WT Tank battles… there are maybe hundreds of montages about the wierd bounces and even wierder pens that happen in the game…
Whether WG has made things better or not in WoT is a really subjective argument. Many people see a lot of the changes as positive…
Loved shooting a t50, with 12.8cm ferdi shell @point blank +doing 0dmg.
Mustve bought the shells from lee harvey oswalds armourer
+managed to swerve around everything inside the tank +out an open hatch.
Better yet, I once bounced from the ass of a T50 in a 105mm cannon in my T29. I could NOT believe my eyes, nor did my friend.
Not to be a smartass here, but a t50 cant even meet a ferdi, so how could you bounce off of one?
@skivster maybe you hit it at an extreme angle? If you want realism everybody would shoot HE and everything would pretty much get oneshot, as most WW2 tanks would get so much spalling damage and steel splinters in the tank the crew would be dead when they got hit with HE…
I cant get into WT tanks. The One Shot From WhotheFuckKnowsWhereWithaPotato is a major no no for me.
Welcome to actual tank combat my friend. Your mk1 eyeballs are your friend.
Oh yea, the ol’ “You want realism go to the army” bullshit. I want to have fun, not being sent to the garage after 2 minutes from a shot from 5km away
it just takes more time for your eyes to learn to see… that’s all
Nice one Rita. We should make you an honorary Brit.
2 More years and I will be one. :3
I shall come out of my citizenship ceremony holding a tea cup with the utmost etiquette while marvelling everyone with my dulcet soothing tones and exquisite vocabulary while wearing a nice fancy dress and a silly hat!
Thus, I shall use a monocle for extra flair!
Don’t forget the handlebar moustache !
There is one problem with this. Gaijin Has not used these files in the game since September 2016. The Best Dataminer we have Mike10d. Confirmed this:
so the data is right, but how you got there is wrong. All files in the /dm/ folder that contains “projectiletypes.blk” and “slopeeffect.blk” are unused. So I just had to recheck your data using the “damagemodel.blk” located one level higher than the /dm/ folder. The data you have is correct but could have been easily out of date, that folder has not been touched in several updates. please use the up to date “damagemodel.blk” in the future
Edit: this has been like this since at least September 2016. -Mike10d
I get that people here have a vendetta against War Thunder but PLEASE do a little more research before you claim to bust war thunder wide open.
ManyMilesAgain – Please read more carefully next time.
The data is the same in the current files, this line of code is still in use. Mike confirmed it in the very post you have up here “(…) the data you have is correct but it COULD have been easily out of date”
You’re right my bad I didn’t read that! fml now I look like a dumbass
“I get that people here have a vendetta against War Thunder”
HOW DARE YOU?
Its alright @ManyMilesAway. It happens. Xxx
Da, I cross-checked between slopeeffect.blk and damagemodel.blk in the first place, with Mike pointing out that I cited the wrong file, despite them giving the same results.
you always do this, all it takes is just anyone giving gaijin a critic and you jump in defense of them without even trying to learn the context behind what those people said/wrote what they did, in the end you always end up apologizing like you did after understanding what you said about Jingles came from you not really knowing his reasons as to why he said what he did about Gaijin
you could have avoided this if you had read the article with attention because just before he posted the screenshots from the forum he wrote:
«I posted it on the WT subreddit, backed by the calculations done by the Chinese forum users (Asian math, da) and the confirmation of a well-known dataminer, u/_mike10d.»
why would mike10d go back on his word?
And again I’m being reminded that WoT community is a cancerous cesspool and I shouldn’t read ANY comments ANYWHERE. But I guess it’s every MMO community in a nutshell. I guess just playing and enjoying games is too mainstream and not edgy enough.
And I even left the comment under the wrong post, goddammit. I should sleep more.
Investigating the “slope effect” on the chinese server 😮
Isnt that racist
Fun fact: People in China play WT on Gaijin server, since the Chinese server is dominated by a shitton of autistic kiddo swearing in their own little shitty forum. It’s also patches late (like half a year late) when it comes to updates.
they’re THAT annoying, huh? like a bunch of 13-year old COD kids?
Glad I uninstalled the game about 6 months ago.
What I don’t understand are 2 things
1. Why are most ww2 vehicular combat games made only by russian companies?? (Be it WoT or WT)
2. Why are russians still so stuck up over the “prowess” of their tanks? The T-series got the shit kicked out of it every single time it met western tanks in real life.
They still try to make them look good virtually.
1) Because they’re russians. And russians luv them tonks almost as much as they luv vodka.
2) Because they’re russians. And russians never make mistakes*.
* so they say
You do have to be fair though, there are VERY few fights between same generation tanks, the soviet/russian tanks got their ass handed, but that was often because they were 10-20 years older than the tanks they were fighting. BUT obviously their tanks arent as good as WOT/WT make them out to be, they have their pros and cons just like any other. (And in the case of the centurion vs t54, it was basically t54 go cry with your mummy ;p )
1. Because Russia as a nation has a higher interest in military service and vehicles then other countries. Potentially due to required to have training after Highschool and their many holidays and events in commemoration.
2. This APDS issue also affects tanks in rank 5 of other nations like the M60 which has a very hard to pen UFP (with APDS), though it is true Russia lacks APDS over other nations, most nations have other ammunition as viable or useful as APDS besides Britain. If anything it’s them thinking UK sucks rather then USSR tanks OP, as most nations are not too heavily affected by this with HEAT-FS and other munitions to use.
I doubt this is mostly an intentional way to nerf other nations and more of a lack of understanding on post war APDS shells or at least executing them well in game since the current stats perform more similar to WWII APDS give or take. Same argument can be said about the arcadey way APHE works or how bad HE or HESH is performing. (I see no one saying US/German bias just because USSR HE howitzers were nerfed)
I really hope this whole affair is another thing that budges Gaijin towards realizing that betraying your customers is shitty practice and bad for your business. Godspeed dataminers! (Gaijins worst possible solution: “game data is now encrypted because of safety reasons)))”)
“… all proving this BS penetration curve is wrongfully wrong! ”
Nope. “all CLAIMING this penetration curve is wrongfully wrong.” FTFY
A quick look in Armor and Gunnery confirms this curve is very much how APDS is measured to actually work, save some bumps in the plot:
AOI/Slope mult.
60/~1.0
45/~1.8
30/~3.5
25/~4.8
15/~9.5
Why do you think the russians choose 60 deg angle for their tanks, huh?!
Multipliers for HEAT is much more close to LOS thickness and the various AP/C/BC/(etc) are pretty much all over the place and much more difficult to get right.
They didn’t screwed anything this year, it was just a random nerf done in the past that is just recently discovered now.
The 105mm L7 Ordnance was supposed to pen a T-54 after MoD realised the the QF-20 Pounder would not go through the T-54 reliably, instead they upscaled the gun which the APDS can have the potential of penetrating raiding T-54’s, also there is a hellton of problems with the tank such as no gun-stabilizer, awful shell selection during the grind of these vehicles and problematic turret which can be penned if shot correctly in the turret or cupola.
Also this is APDS which was developed on the Comet during WW2 used up to the 105mm L7 which then replace the APDS with APDSFS that provided better ballistics and armour-piercing capabilities, it also very effective upon angles greater then 60 degrees (compare T95E1, T-62 APDSFS to the 105mm L7 APDS) it wouldn’t be surprising if it wouldn’t pen angles great then 30 at the AoI.
T-62 has 61 degrees of frontal hull armour, so this will be perfect case for this strange value.
303mm / 2.76 = ~109mm, so you have a 50/50 chance of penetrating a T-62 @ 1km when the position of the AoI is directly facing the hull, in this case the position of the turret to that of the hull, in reality, no tanks here are Stridsvagn 103’s to do that, so since a standard turret such as on the leopards can depress can eliminate the multiplier that’s if on a flat ground. and even penetrate if it angled to a very small margin.
If the target is above ground you can just shoot the lower plate since its angled at 54 degrees, which also can kill the driver, detonate the ammunition or ignite the fuel, also not to mention the T-62 has -6 degrees of gun depression which is surprising since majority of the line has -3 or -4 degrees of gun depression, if its angled, just shoot the turret, though you have to cross your fingers in order to penetrate the turret as its 220mm – 240, but its casted, therefore its armour effectiveness is slightly reduced to a margin however its spherical, best scenarios is to shoot the center of the turret.
Overall it’s not a big deal to make out, I find the L7 to be a very good gun compared to the shitty ammunition that T-54’s has which you have to grind to get a awful APCR, then T-54 1949 to get a less-superior APDS with less shrapnel then 105mm APDS, and then HEAT-FS on the T-54 1951, the M60’s 105mm almost outperform the APDSFS on T-55A which is very surprising and with a larger caliber comes to more shrapnel
Actually LoS thickness is just bullshit, u can have the same armor Los thickness at 90 protecting the same area for the same overall weight,do the math.
Sloped armor increases protection because of the effect it had on short projectiles, like early APDS, so it’s not just about thickness.
Do some reading about it, but hey, this blog became more and more a repository for copy/pasta whining, maybe put some effort in your research Rita, GL
You paid so much attention to the article you did not even notice it wasn’t me who wrote it when it states it right on top. GG
When they first released the Leopard, I was excited because the russian bias could finally be defeated. German tanks finally had something which could kill russian tanks. It didn’t last long, as in one of the subsequent patches, they nerfed APDS damage to pathetic levels. It went from one-shotting T-54s from the front to having to snipe each individual crew member because the damage was so low that even shots to fuel tanks and ammo racks were barely enough to turn them to yellow status. After that, they added these modifiers and we couldn’t even penetrate russian tanks any longer. That is when I russian bias defeated me and I dumped the game.
Well this is one of mainreasons why i left war thunder gf. I like to play all nations but some are just so hard to master and some are just so simple to play.
Other reasons are:
– low income (silverlions/rp for modules/tanks/crew)
– ace crew only for eagles
– tankbalance ( kv-1 vs pz III for example, aphe is nearly useless against an angled kv-1 and apcr likes to shatter way to much, you can do all right and he just rushes into you and shoots a nice aphe into your face -_-)
– shell-behaviour-after-penetration
(Some aphe/apbc/apcr/heat etc. seem to do ridiculous amounts of damage/spalling and some seem to barley even scratch the paint inside.)
Well and in airarcade what annoys me the most is bombers. Well not bombers i like to fly them too, but when you lose the bases and they bomb your airstrip/ or groundtargets to smitherins you lose. I just feel forced to hunt bombers over and over and over again, to simply have a chance to win. In my opinion it should be a combination of both bombing and shooting down airplanes to win a match.
posted this link in WT forum, got 2 day forum ban and post removed.i’m regular WT player since 2013. 10/10 would do again.