Hungarian Q&A answers by Karika – part 1

Hello everyone and thank you for all of your questions! You actually asked more than I thought you would, but I enjoyed answering them nonetheless. I even learnt some new things 😉

I grouped the similar questions together to avoid too much repetition. I also corrected the misspelling and some grammar mistakes in the questions if you don’t mind.

In this first part I’ll answer the questions about the possible Hungarian branch or tech tree. In the next part, we’ll take a look in the general Hungarian tank related matters, alongside with the questions about the two Hungarian tanks already implemented in WoT.
Q: What kind of lines we would potentially see on Hungarian tech tree? (medium, heavy, light or TDs?)

Q: How many lines are going to be available?

Q: So, how should the Hungarian tech tree should look like?

Q: Will we see the little-known but beloved Hungarian low-profile tank destroyers in the tree? Such as the Tas rohamlöveg, 44M Zrinyi I and variants of the Toldi rohamlöveg. If yes, what is the likelihood of a 2-10 full line?

A: At the moment, there are two incomplete lines, a light/medium line up to tier 7 and a tank destroyer line which either ends at tier 4 or at tier 5, depending on how historically accurate the Szebeny tank destroyer proposal (Nimród 80) would be added (if it would be added at all).

In addition, the fate of the Tas rohamlöveg is yet to be decided. If WG decides to add it even though its historical authenticity issues, it can be balanced anywhere between tier 6-8. I’ll talk about the details in later answers.

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Q: If the Hungarian tech tree comes out (hopefully), what would the tanks’ characteristics be?

A: I wrote a series of article about this topic a long time ago, where I went through the possible characteristics of the Hungarian AFVs suitable for WoT. You can find the links for them hereBut bear in mind that these articles were written back in 2014, sometime before WG abandoned the combined EU tech tree idea, and decided to implement the standalone Czechoslovak tech tree instead. There are some informations and speculations in these articles that became obsolete by now.

 

Q: Do you think that WarGaming will actually introduce Hungarian tanks into the game at a later date?

A: I hope so, but I am sceptical at the same time. We will see.

 

Q: What tank will most likely be the tier 10?

A: I can only come up with two candidates at the moment, but both of them have their own problems. I am not really satisfied with either of them and still looking for something more suitable, although I doubt that such thing even exist.

The first one is the Hungarian T-55AM, which is technically a domestic copy of the Czechoslovak T-55AM2 “Kladivo” with neglectable differences. The problem with this is that it’s from the early 1980’s, which is out of the WoT timeframe. Furthermore, it had technologies such as a laser rangefinder or a semi-automatic fire control system which are not allowed in the game at the moment and most likely will not be in the future either. Plus, it’s just yet another Soviet copy, which is boring.

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My other candidate is the Straussler MBT concept.

On the upside, it’s suitable for the game and would offer an interesting, unique experience at tier 10 which would worth to grind for.

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On the downside, even though its designer, Nicholas Straussler was born in Hungary, designed a tank and an armored car for the Hungarian army back in the late 1930’s and maintained close connections to his fatherland through his whole life, he was a British citizen who designed this main battle tank for the British army.
However, according to the research I’m currently working on, he most likely secretly sent the preliminary blueprints of this particular vehicle – among other British and NATO military secrets – to the ÁVH (the Hungarian secret police) and then to the II/3. Department of the Hungarian Ministry of Interior (Belügyminisztérium II/3. osztály, quasi the Hungarian intelligence bureau) in the 1950’s. Nevertheless, this topic still needs to be researched thoroughly.

In spite of all these latter findings, implementing the Straussler MBT on the top of the Hungarian research line might be still a bit ‘forced’ from a certain point of view, because even if the Hungarians knew about its existence, it definitely would not have been built by them. It’s up to WG to decide it these connections are enough or not.

Q: I’ve read your Straussler MBT article and even though it seems interesting, why would we want a tier 10 E-25?

A: Ahh, this again… I understand why would anybody compare the Straussler MBT to the German E 25. They look quite similar, their weight is similar, their playstyle would also be somewhat similar in WoT and they would have the same rough dimensions in the game as well – thanks to the fact that WG made the E 25 too small when they implemented it, and would not dare to make it larger thus effectively nerf a premium vehicle.

But let’s not forget that the E 25 is one of the handful of ‘old’ premium TDs in the game which still does not lose their camo value while firing and remained untouched when WG nerfed the TDs back in 0.9.1. This is partly the reason why the E 25 is considered to be overpowered by the majority of the player community and anything that are even slightly resembles it became accursed.

 

But the Straussler MBT would not get that advantage. So while it would still be a stealthy vehicle in WoT, it definitely would not be as ‘invisible’ as the dreaded tier 7 German premium TD. In theory, The Straussler MBT would not be even as stealthy as the Swedish tier 10 TD, the Strv. 103B  while firing, thanks to its larger caliber gun.

 

If you really want to compare the stats that are known about Straussler’s tank to the stats of the already implemented vehicles in WoT, the Straussler MBT would probably be a small, nimble TD with useless armor, armed with the autoloaded version of the Conqueror’s 120mm gun, but with only 3 rounds per magazine rather than 4 like on the other autoloaded 120mm guns on the T57 Heavy or the AMX 50B. These rough characteristics can be balanced in my opinion.

 

P.S.: Please let’s not turn the comment section of this article into a battlefield between the opinions of why the E 25 is OP or why it isn’t, should it be nerfed or not, etc. There are other forums where you can discuss this issue. Let’s be civil, and focus on the topic of this article: the tanks and AFVs that are related to Hungary in any way.

 

Q: Now that you have a viable tier 10 with the Straussler MBT have there been any progress in finding candidates for tiers 8 and 9, and how does your current branch proposal look?

A: My concerns about the viability of the Straussler MBT can be read in a previous answer. About the tier 8-9, I went through most of the blueprints and descriptions about Nicholas Straussler’s other inventions and planned vehicles, but it seems the Straussler MBT was the only tracked military vehicle he designed after WW2. There are other Straussler made vehicle concepts armed with e.g. a 40mm Bofors gun, a rocket launcher or recoilless rifles but all of them were wheeled. So the tier 8 and 9 vehicle of the theoretic Hungarian tree  most probably will not be a Straussler made concept. It has to come from somewhere else (if such candidate even exists).

 

Q: Could the Straussler MBT be divided up on the basis that it had different engines at each tier (tier 9 700hp tier 10 800hp ) with the tier 10 version also having the 120mm L1 using APCR as standard ammunition and tier 9 using the same gun with AP as standard?

A: Possible, but unlikely. Bear in mind that the Straussler MBT (as far as I know at the moment) was a single concept of a vehicle with only a single not-that-detailed blueprint and description. It’s not yet known if it had earlier or later phases, less or more detailed blueprints other than the one I have already found. Still, with a pinch of the notorious WG magic and “SerB’s Design Bureau”, any vehicle can be separated into two á la E 50 and E 50M.

 

Q: Would it be viable to have the TAS TD at tier 8 leading on to the Straussler MBT at tier 9?

A: A bit forced for my taste. I would definitely not recommend this solution, but it’s possible.

 

Q: The way i understand it there isn’t really any historical information supporting the Tas based tank destroyer (Tas rohamlöveg), but rather the Tas td was based on a misinterpretation relating to there being two Tas medium tank prototypes under construction.

Is this the case? and if it is how do you feel about WG adding such a vehicle when it was not historically conceived as far as we know.

A: Yes, that is the case here, and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I am a biased Hungarian who wants to try out every possible Hungarian vehicle in a game. But on the other hand, I am a historian, and I do not want a most probably fake vehicle to be added.
Those who are interested in the story of the Tas rohamlöveg can read more about it here, although I already wrote a more detailed summary about this topic, which will be published on tanks-encyclopedia in the foreseeable future.

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If WG decides to implement the Tas rohamlöveg in their game despite the issues with its  historicity, it’s their choice, World of Tanks is not a history simulator. My only concern then is to representing a fake vehicle as if was a real one. It has to be pointed out clearly that a ‘fake tank’ is for example just “an artistic recreation of how things could have been looked like”.

 

Q: Would there actually be enough tanks to make a full line, and what would the timeline be like?

A: A suitable candidate of any kind for tier 8-9 (and as we have seen, maybe for tier 10) are yet to be found. Other than those, Hungary could build partial lines of light/medium tanks and tank destroyers between tier 1 to 7, ranging from the Straussler V-3 light tank from 1933-1936 up to the 44 M. Tas medium tank from 1944. If the Straussler MBT would be added, that would prolong the timeline to 1961.

 

Q: How would you solve the problem of lack high tier candidate?

A: In my personal opinion, the Hungarian tanks would work at best as a somewhat separated sub-branch integrated into the German tech tree with distinguished base color, insignias, crew, premium consumable, etc. The Hungarian tank lines then could have connections to the German medium and TD lines where the Hungarian ones end (e.g.: Tas → Panther or Panther II and Zrínyi → StuG III). In this way, it would be unnecessary to force non-domestic or debatable vehicles into the tree to make it ‘complete’. Although the ‘how to separate them?’ issue is still waiting to be solved, because implementing them as outright German vehicles would not make any sense.

But this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with me.

 

Q: Why should we care about another nation? What would make this one unique or interesting?

Q: Curious what new play style we might see ie. the Swedish tech tree focused on gun depression/siege mode or the Czech line was a blend of Russian and German tank design.
Q: What will make the Hungarian tech tree stand out from the other lines in the game?

A: With the recent introduction of the Swedish tanks, not much. The key feature of the majority of the Hungarian tanks would be also the decent gun depression, because generally speaking, all of their other historic characteristics would be mostly average at best with a few exceptions. Although I can not take into account how their soft stats would look like in the game.

 

In my personal opinion, the uniqueness of these vehicles will not come from their characteristics, but from their historical importance, because unlike the majority of the latest new branches, most of the Hungarian tanks were actually built, saw service and fought in the Second World War. Certainly not interesting for hardcore gamers, I agree with that, but more so for those who are interested in tanks in general and their history.

 

Q: If a full Hungarian tech tree were to come out exactly as you wanted it, what do you think would be the most interesting tank in that tree at any tier?

A: Truth to be told, if we only take into account how different or new the Hungarian tanks would be compared to the tanks we already have access in WoT, most of the Hungarian ones are not that interesting. Gameplay-wise the Toldi light tanks are quite similar to the low tier Swedish light tanks, the Turáns are similar to the ST. vz. 39 and the Pz. IVs, the Zrínyis to the Hetzer or the tier 4 StuG III.

An exception might be the 36/40 M. Nimród, which is unlike any other vehicle in the game at the moment. It had a dead accurate 40mm autocannon, similar to the British tier 4 Covenanter’s top gun in the game but at tier 2 or tier 3 in an open-top, fully rotatable turret. These are compensated by its mediocre mobility, tall silhouette and poor armor.
Another interesting vehicle could be the tier 7 Tas, which could be seen as a Panther-Comet hybrid.
Lastly, there’s the unique Straussler MBT at tier 10, but you can read about its issues in my earlier answers.

Q: Do you think WG should focus on fixing core game mechanics before introducing new nations to the game which no one asked for?

A: Obviously. Although the “no one asked for” is a little exaggeration. There are numerous topics and discussions on the official WoT forums and other WoT related sites where people talk about the Hungarian tanks and that they would like to see them in game. And those are just the minority of players who actually visit or even bother to comment on the forums.

 

Q: You could probably fit all the people who want a Hungarian tree in a mini bus. True or false?

A: *sigh*

 

Q: Can we get more and more fun maps? I’m sick of new tech trees and premium tanks.

A: You are probably right. At the moment there are other, more important issues to be settled, and things such as various rebalances, new maps, new game modes, etc. are what WoT needs now to remain competitive. But let’s not forget that in a longer perspective, it’s the new content (in our case, tank branches and tech trees) what makes the players keep grinding and playing the game.

 

Q: Is there potential for more than one branch? (Even for Czech tech tree SilentStalker proposed 5 or so totally viable branches)

A: Hungary did not have that much time or resources to develop many vehicles like how many Czechoslovakia did. The best it could offer are the incomplete light/medium and a tank destroyer lines.

 

Q: Could the Czechoslovakian tech tree be combined with a Hungarian or wouldn’t that make sense historically?

A: No, it would not. The only connection between the Hungarian and Czechoslovak tanks is the fact that the Turán medium tank is derived from the Škoda T 21. Other than that, there’s no relevant connection between the two nations, especially not in the tiers below the Turán, which would justify this theoretical branching from tier 1 or 2 or at the end of the Hungarian lines.

 

Q: I’ve seen your posts and tech trees. Would they work better in a Pan-Euro tree or as a stand alone tree?

A: Unfortunately, the plan of a combined European tech tree (or EU tech tree, Pan-Euro tech tree, whatever) is still dead as a doornail and will remain so with the addition of the Czechoslovak and Swedish trees into the game.

 

As a standalone tree, Hungary lacks the at least one complete tier 1-10 line, which is crucial from WG’s point of view. Besides, realistically speaking, the majority of players would not grind a tree which ends at tier 7, especially since the Hungarian tanks are not that interesting gameplay-wise in the first place.

 

Q: Would the Burstyn-Motorgeschütz be a viable tier 1 candidate? If the V 3 was placed at tier 1 it would have more penetration than the historical Toldi I tank which would be at tier 2.

A: Well, the Burstyn-Motorgeschütz was an Austro-Hungarian tank, even if it was definitely more Austrian than Hungarian, as not even a single Hungarian-born person took place in its development as far as I know. But it could be a tier 1 tank by its stats. Eventually, if the V-3 turns out to be too good for tier 1, Gunther Burstyn’s tank could be an alternative.

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Although, personally I would prefer something what the Hungarian army actually wanted to use. The reason why I suggested the V-3 is because even if it used – on paper – the same 40mm gun as the tier 2 V-4, it has not been a well tailored design yet, e.g. it’s turret mockup was rather cramped. Therefore, I assume that if WG would give bad soft stats to the V-3, such as long reload, bad aim time, slow turret rotation speed or similar, the V-3 could work as a tier 1 light tank.

 

Q: Could the Austrian SK 105 light tank be added as the top tier for the medium branch? It currently lacks a top tier for that branch on the basis that the Burstyn-Motorgeschütz would be a viable option for tier 1 as that is a Austro-Hungarian tank?

A: The problem with the SK-105 Kürassier is that it is not even remotely connected to Hungary in any way, regardless of the fate of the Burstyn-Motorgeschütz. Furthermore, with the recent introduction of tier 10 light tanks, it would fall into this new category as it was not that different from the AMX 13 105. Implementing it as a Hungarian tier 10 light tank is not a good idea in my opinion.

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Q: If there are not enough tanks (to form a coherent tech tree), would there be enough wheeled vehicles that could fill in the gaps?

A: No. The Hungarian wheeled armored fighting vehicles that could be fitted in the timeframe of WoT are the 39 M. Csaba armored car from WW2 and the D-944 PSZH armored personnel carrier from the late 1960’s. They both had mediocre mobility for an armored car and had rather low caliber guns: the Csaba had the same 20mm Solothurn heavy rifle as the Toldi I light tank and the PSZH was armed with a 14,5mm KPVT heavy machine gun.

I do not know how the wheeled vehicles could fit in WoT, but I do not think that these two would be considered as high tier candidates. Not to mention that the probability of any wheeled vehicle to appear in WoT in the near future is very low.

 

Q: What would be the heaviest tank possible in this line?

A: The 44 M. Tas with its 36.6 tons.

 

Q: Will there be a heavy tank line?

Q: Are there potential heavy tanks?

A: No. Even though the Turán II, Turán III and Tas tanks were classified as ‘heavy tanks’ in Hungarian service, they should be added as medium tanks in the game. The Hungarian tank classification system was rather different from the international ones. It was based on the caliber of the gun, not on the supposed combat role or the weight of the vehicle. Anything with a 75mm or larger caliber gun was a heavy tank in Hungary, even the German Pz. IV or the Panther.

The only ‘traditional’ heavy tanks used by the Hungarian army were the Tiger I during the war and the IS-2 for a short time after it. These tanks were not modified during their Hungarian service and are already in the game multiple times.

 

Q: Is there a possibility for a full SPG line?

Q: Were there any self-propelled artillery built by Hungary and if not, did they even plan to develop one? (A question translated from Hungarian)

A: No. The only SPG which had any connection to a Hungarian vehicle is a conversion created on the basis of captured Turán tank chassis’s after the war by the Czechoslovaks. They mounted also captured 10,5cm leFH18 field guns on them. You can read more about them here. But these self-propelled artillery pieces were created and operated by Czechoslovakia, so they should be put in the Czechoslovak tech tree if they come.

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Q: If a Hungarian tree were to come out are there any potential premium and what tier would they be?

Q: What could be a good first premium for the Hungarian nation?

A: There are tanks that do not really fit in the tech tree and could be used as premiums, such as this experimental Toldi IIA with side-skirts, the so called ‘Toldi IIAK’.

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There is a possibility for side-skirted Turáns and Zrínyis to be added as premiums as well, similar to their non-side-skirted regular counterparts.

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However, considering that nearly all of the Hungarian tanks are low- to mid-tiers only, these possible premiums would be tier 4 at best. Although, there is a possibility to add the Tas rohamlöveg as a premium TD and that could be balanced anywhere between tier 6-8.

So this was it for part 1, keep your eyes open for part 2 which will come soon.

 

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