We have some in the wild screen shots of the textureless model.
Source WoT Express.
POLISH 40TB HABICHA ST Screen Shots
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«that feeling when you know something is clearly a fake…… but still really want to play it….»
Cromwell/Comet inspired chassis with rear end inspired on Japanese Chi-He/Chi-To medium tanks and reversed american style torsion bar suspension (Drive Sproket infront instead of idler wheel), on top of that they changed the previous turret for something closely looking like a mix of the King Tiger, Chi-To and KV-1 turrets
how? well, the overall shape os like the King Tiger’s turret (it even comes with the large access hatch in the back) but on the King Tiger’s the turret side plate is a whole piece slightly curved while this one is “bent” (has an edge or makes an angle, however you wanna take it) like the Japanese top Tier War Time medium tanks (like Chi-Ri, Chi-Nu etc…)
adding to all that you have a mantlet that looks like a copy from a KV-1, in fact the whole turret looks similar to the one on the KV-1 except that it’s turret is “flat”/straight on the side unlike this turret, other similarity is the small “step” we can see from the side that separates the rear storage from the crew compartment (situated inside the turret ring)
to finish it all that commanders hatch is like the one we can see on the turret developed for the Porsche prototype for the King Tiger program, the VK45.01(P), especially similar in the way it “bulges” out from the side plate, on top of that on the left side just like on the real “Porsche Turret”
That’s not a fake, at least it’s not made up by WG.
There are old polish documents and drawings with such tank, but it was supposed to be different (lighter, less armor and so on).
GrumpyStranger made a 3D model, with the help of some historians, long time ago. https://imgur.com/a/EQFSu
WB confirmed that they used that model as a example.
So, all the things you wrote about it being a mix of other tanks – it’s true, but it was made by some polish “designers”.
Dude it’s not a fake. It’s a real project. Edward Habich create this for battle versus other 25 TP versions.
well, I stand corrected but you cannot deny that my points about different parts looking like parts of other known tanks to be correct, just compare them side-by-side and the similarities are obvious
if it’s real all the best but, depending when it was designed, it is strange that it looks so much with some vehicles it’s designer had no way of knowing, especially the Japanese tanks and the King Tiger that was designed a fair bit later than the 25TP you say it was it’s competitor
it will be amazing if it’s just a extraordinary coincidence
Let us love ignorant people who do not want to look for information in historical publications.
The origins.
The concept of arming Polish Army with medium tanks appeared first in the mid-twenties of the twentieth century. It was recognized at the time that it should be a vehicle weighing up to 20 tons, fast, and sufficiently armored and armed. However, in the following years, the work on the medium tank wasn’t taken forward. There was no opportunity to build one on the basis of foreign tanks designs (at the time appropriate tanks didn’t exist, or were kept as top secret projects). Moreover, Poland didn’t have experts with sufficient experience and industry capable of producing such a vehicle. Also one of important reasons was the lack of sufficient funds.
First Concept.
Once beginning of the production of the TK-S tankette’s and the 7TP light tanks, in the mid-thirties of the twentieth century resumed back to the problem of the development of a medium tank. In January 1937, the Committee for Armament and Equipment Ministry of Military Affairs (KSUS) defined guidelines for the concept of a new medium tank. Vehicle weight was to be 16 tons, while the armament was composed of a wz. 1897 cal. 75 mm Schneider cannon and two Hothkiss wz.25 machine guns. Engine type was supposed to be a diesel engine with an output of 320 hp. The general design was to be based on the English tank Vickers A6 “Sixteen tonner”: the fighting compartment in front and the engine compartment at the back. There would be a central two-man turret with a 75mm gun and a coaxial machine-gun. In the front of the hull were to be placed two secondary machine-gun turrets, each with a 7.92mm machine gun. Similar to the USSR medium tanks T-28. Preliminary work on the project carried out in the Armored Forces Command have shown that with the assumed thickness of armor and weaponry weight of the tank will be 23-25 tonnes, which exceeds the limit of the expected mass.
Medium Tank 25t BS PZInż. “Habich Tank”
Medium Tanks were planned as a new concept, as it was considered that light vehicles will not work on the contemporary, rapidly changing battlefield. There were three projects designed by KSUS and BBTBr.Panc. but those were only a concepts works with never left engineers desktops, but actually began to order and manufacture some of their parts to solve some certain things by study.
Eventually it was decided to start construction of a prototype of the design of engineer E.Habich from the Special Bureau of PZInż company. In 1939 started the construction of a wooden mock-up, and the prototype was to be ready a year later. Initially considered various options of armament, including prototype 47 mm anti-tank cannon being constructed by cpt. Wacław Stetkiewicz and prototype anti aircraft gun 50~55 mm. Ultimately it was decided to equip the vehicle with long-barreled Schneider wz.22/24 75mm anti-aircraft cannon. The hull of the tank had to be of lowest possible profile with sloped armor plates, just like the tower, which was to be large but of lowest possible profile.
Design.
The work, initiated at the beginning of 1939. were directed by the Head of Special Vehicles Bureau, engineer Edward Habich, who was also the chief engineer of this tank.
Habich withdrew from the concept of multi-turreted vehicle.
Under his design, hull of the tank has to have lowest possible and wide profile, with slopped front and side armor plates. In the front panel of thickness up to 60mm (side and rear plates have a thickness of 40 mm) was placed universal ball mantle (designed by engineer Napiórkowski) for the hull 7.92mm machine gun (Type C4 – prototype air cooled machine gun) operated by gunner occupying a seat next to the driver.
Turret has to be of lowest and wide profile possible, welded from 6 to 8 rolled steel armor plates. On top of the turret were placed one or two hathes for the crew, Gundlah G wz.34 reversible periscopes and Słupski sleves.
The gun mounted in the turret has to be coupled with coaxial machine gun (Type C4 – prototype air cooled machine gun) and both suppose to be placed in a mantle of similar construction to the one from the 7TP.
Armament had to supplemented by a third machine gun (again the Type C4 – prototype air cooled machine gun), designed for anti-aircraft defense, placed in mantle of special construction on the commander’s hatch.
Tank had to have also a strong field radio (N2/C) mounted in rear oriel of turret.
The original assumptions of armament were about 40-47 mm caliber cannon: 40mm POM-POM or a prototype 47 mm anti-tank cannon being constructed by cpt. Wacław Stetkiewicz. Then thought about a new anti-aircraft 50-55mm caliber weapon being constructed in Starachowice weapons plant, but very quickly, because in the spring of 1939., engineer Tadeusz Tański involved in the design of the tank, proposed to use as the main armament the French Schneider 75 mm wz.22/24 long-barreled anti-aircraft cannon.
Those guns, purchased by the Polish Navy Command in the amount of 14 pieces, were in armament of the 1st and 2nd Marine Flak squadrons. At that time those were already outdated and not very suitable to provide anti-aircraft defense against modern aircraft’s.
Due to good ballistic characteristics, it lent itself well to fight the enemy tanks, and their frag-destructive shells had sufficient effectiveness to destroy the typical field fortifications.
Tański proposal was approved by Habich who had at same time commission works to adapt this gun to be mounted in tank turret.
For the new tank Engine Department of th PZInż., Headed by Eng. Zdzislaw Rytel, designed in collaboration with Eng. Jan Werner, a special V-12 engine in two versions: carburetor gasoline of 300 hp (according to other data had to be 8-cylinder) and direct injection diesel engine of 250 hp. However Until the outbreak of the war, Engine Department of PZInż didn’t finish any of those prototypes. Due to the prolonged work on the construction of Polish engine prototype, it was decided to look for another one outside the country. An American La-France engine with was bought for the 10TP seemed to be too weak and faulty and the most appropriate engine was found to be the German Maybach HL108 engine with power of 221 kW (300 hp), with has been already considered into account in 1937. during early development stage of 10TP, It was about 200 kg lighter than a American La France and reached by almost half as much power. However, despite many efforts and attempts to buy the HL108 with semi-automated gear-boxes in Germany… the 10TP had to be driven further with unreliable American La France. The case was so important that it was even an attempt to bring the engine to the Poland through help of Sweden, because the Germans (in 1937) did not agree to sell fewer than 8 ~ 10 engines., with qty. Polish side simply could not afford. However, the most likely to the September of 1939. Maybach buy failed, although some documents say that a new engine has been obtained… After the war In the 60’s Leon Czekalski (a officer who did test drive of 10TP) recalled that 10TP was tested with two different engines, and for 2nd one waited for the long time…
The chassis of designed tank was similar in construction to the chassis of the LT vz.38 and applied six rubber-tyred wheels of approx. 650~700mm diameter, suspended on individual suspension arms but combined by two with one common spring element, which was flat leaf-spring, the flat leaf-springs were placed on the outside of the hull. The upper branch of the tracks have to be supported also by rubber-tyred wheels but of a much smaller diameter.
A single copy of designed tank prototype was ordered (the details of the contract are unknown due to lack of surviving records), which was to be delivered to the test. However until the outbreak of war BS PZInż. was able to make only a wooden mock-up of tank in scale of 1:1.
On the basis of those scanty information, it can be concluded that the modern tank was is design, not outgoing constructions of its potential opponents perhaps even surpassing them. However, it seems weight of the tank was quite significantly underestimated, which at the scheduled armor would exceed 25 or more tons, it was also decided to use too weak engines. Engine of 300hp was a minimum to reach land speed of 40kph, better traction parameters could only give a engine of power greater than 400-450hp.
Despite years of research, historians could not find any photographs or drawings (with the exception of some elements and the suspension schematic being held secret by Mr. Piotr Zarzycki for purpose of book being written by him), on the basis of which could be done reliable reconstruction of the appearance of this Polish medium tank.
All we have for now are schematics drawn by KRZYCHAL from odkrywca.pl forums and the render of GrumpyStranger.
Those schematics are made from proportion of human phantoms and known modules planned to used in tank like a: chassis carriage wheels, engine, main gun, auxiliary machine guns, radio etc.
What we known for sure the tank must not exceed wide of 3.15m (polish railroads loading gauge) therefore we assume approximately 3.0m wide with is not wider than railroad tunnels and wagon platforms for railroad transport and not narrower than a 2.80m for enough crew working space… the rest come from modules proportions.
However GrumpyStarnger render were created on the basis of discussion lead on the odkrywca.pl forums with the help of the knowledge of Mr. Piotr Zarzcki and Mr. Adam Jońca whose are the Polish experts in case of Polish armored vehicles prototypes.
What makes them a reliable source of the appearance of the vehicle.
well, I don’t usually waste my time engaging in discussions with people who do not deserve a millisecond of my attention BUT sometimes there are “battles” you have to fight and cannot run from them, especially when the opposition consists in a rather “special” person
considering my comment was the only one for abou a day and a half I can more or less guess that when you mention someone “ignorant” you are referring to me, then again I do not know who’s the “ignorant” here if it takes you more than a day to reply and you cannot do that in any other form but in a insulting manner
well, then again I guess I am really “ignorant” for not speaking or reading the Polish native language and not having access to the forums and information someone from the country would
I guess I am also “ignorant” for the fact that WoT has been around for 7 years, which is pretty much as much as the time since the Polish Tech Tree was first requested, and yet during this 7 year period I’ve seen so many Polish TT proposals but none had ever even mentioned the existence of this tank, then again I guess I am also “ignorant” for the fact that those who supposedly had access to info about Polish Tank Development, in order to “design” their TT proposals, never mentioned it or if someone did mention a tank design by PZInż it was never what we see here
lastly I guess I am “ignorant” for thinking of it has a fake, even though someone wrote a long post with the “historical” background of such tank that in no way, or maybe a little bit, resembles the final product, afterall it was modeled based on the interpretation made by 2 historians of it’s description and not based on any blueprint, sketch/concept or mock-up, something we have known examples of being prone to mistakes since their view is BIASED from the real life examples they know
it happened with the Hungarian Tas and the Czech top tiers, all of them had models/concepts/mock-ups made based on some basic information and the interpretation made by some historians, in the end it happened that some material surfaced that largely changed what was believed to be a fairly accurate representation of such designs
the 40TB is the same thing, afterall how do you go from a lighter tank with sloped front and sides to a heavier tank with boxy/squared shape? and what about the 47mm OR 50~55mm OR 75mm guns suddenly becoming 90mm? afterall a tank of those dimensions with that armour thickness would be rather similar to the Cromwell and weight around 30~33 tons (considering the Cromwell, similar armour layout ~60/~40/~30 (mm), weights about 28t but the Habich has a larger turret)
in conclusion I wonder if I am really “ignorant” by calling a fake to a representation that little has in common with the historical description of the intended vehicle, and so I repeat my point that maybe those historians were a bit too BIASED from what they know of modern and WWII era tanks when they gave information towards the modeling of this tank, which I suppose they aproved
and I guess that’s it, I hope next time someone tries to explain someone wrong without needing to resort to insult others on the first sentence they wrote
I’m Polish and I fully agree with you. It’s nice to have all those theoretical discussions about what someone planned to design (you can’t even say that we have one complete medium tank prototype). But creating 5 or 6 tanks and saying that polish constructors could go in this direction and create such tanks is just too much.
On the other hand it would be really nice to polish tank tree in WoT, because you just can’t deny our involvement during the WW2 and the fact we had “some” tanks later.
So I think that the tree made by fans would be better http://polishtreeforwot.hol.es/
We have so many clones that few more would not make any difference. Maybe some additional clones like polish Firefly (instead of the recent british one).
The guy who called you ignorant suffers from a “national inferiority complex”. That’s common here in Poland. We dream about being a great country, our literature is full of such bulls***. We like to remind foreigners about husaria (which was really great), king Sobieski, Kopernik or pope JP II. But we don’t understand that to be a Patriot means you should work and pay your taxes, and not only remind others about the greatest moments in our history…
#Tarastir
I guess I can thank you for your words, and let me say that, dispite saying it seemed fake to me due to the several similarities with other exising tanks and for the lack of any reference in the 7 years the Polish Tech Tree has been talked about, I do still desire for the Polish Tech Tree to be included in the game because, as I wrote in original comment, I still get the “urge” to want to play it (just like I did for the Italian tanks), it’s inclusion has my absolute support and contrary to many I only have problems with adding made-up content leaving out real ones, which does not seem to be the case
Maybe I was a badly wounded man (if the friend feels offended I apologize), but information about Polish tanks appeared (I’m mainly doing that on WoT’s forums – in one of the topics a colleague threw the link to 40TB Habisha it’s normally blood flooded even Russians write this correctly to 40TP Habich), among others on the old Rita blog or on the Record – the community’s reaction is mainly mocking, throwing photos with the Polish cavalry as a Tier I tank.
https://images84.fotosik.pl/1110/dc3f9a32f958ef49.jpg – German soldiers on horses at the Polish 7TP tank.
My post would have appeared faster if it probably was shorter and so stuck in authorization.
WG announced the Polish technological tree in 2012, in the same year, there was a large number of over 200 pages about the Polish tanks – the real ones, not the ones misused, used by WG as the Markowski tank. As WG contacted the Polish community which gathered materials, everyone can guess the walkers by visiting the topic on the RU server about Polish tanks
http://forum.worldoftanks.ru/index.php?/topic/1991254-%d0%bf%d1%80%d1%8f%d0%bc%d0%b8%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%bc-%d0%b8%d0%b7-%d0%b0%d1%80%d1%85%d0%b8%d0%b2%d0%be%d0%b2-%e2%80%94-2-%d0%b4%d0%b5%d1%82%d0%b0%d0%bb%d1%8c%d0%bd%d1%8b%d0%b9-%d0%be%d0%b1%d0%b7%d0%be%d1%80-%c2%ab%d0%bf%d0%be%d0%bb%d1%8f%d0%ba%d0%be/page__st__520__pid__50189144#entry50189144
PS. If you are looking for information then be interested in the theme of the guys from the section of the French-language forum WoT http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/550734-branches-de-chars-et-nations-potentielles-pour-wot/#topmost
it’s not that I felt offended, I couldn’t care less for what someone may write against me online, it’s just that there are other ways of stating your point than insulting whomever it may be on the very first sentence you write
on a second point no one was mocking the Polish tanks, it’s simply a case that in 7 years I never saw any mention of it, besides a small note on FTR saying that the 40TP was probably a fake due to conflicting/lack of information
there it is also mentioned that PZInż (company you said the engineer worked for) projected a 23ton medium tank, which matches with parts of your description, afterall you also mention that they underestimated the weight of the tank
you might have also realized that the tank you were describing and the final layout, that WG is also using, have many differences starting from the lack of sloping armour
lastly,about the trolls, we (those who know a little bit abou WWII) know that in fact there was a nation that relied heavily on horses during the war, that nation was Germany