Author: Mizutayio
As many of you know Wargaming released the Panzer 58 ‘Mutz’ back in January/ February and which is one of the better Premium vehicles they’ve added so far. Well,while I should be happy for WG to add the Panzer 58 into WoT since I’m a proud Swiss guy and I do love all things Swiss; Watches, Utility pocket knives, Chocolate, Cuckoo clocks, and a highly secretive banking system etc.
The problem here was it was in the German Tech tree. That is what got me into researching because it was very upsetting and somewhat upsetting for my Swiss player friends and myself to see our neutral country lumped in which a country we classed as a threat during the War. Certainly adding a Swiss tank like that didn’t add a lot of Swiss interest as far as I can tell. Researching it though I’ve been looking at the KW 30 and the Panzer 58, and I can tell you that WG messed things up quite a bit.
So to start off I don’t wish to attack WG quite yet but instead, we take a look at the Rumour that the Panzer 58 program was influenced by the ‘Indien Panzer’ project which is a reasonable proposition as these two tanks look similar and were planned in more or less the same time period.
The design of the Panzer 58 started back in 1950 when the Swiss government quickly noticed that the AMX 13s that they had ordered were insufficient and that they needed a medium tank as well. The political situation all over the globe meant that getting a foreign medium tank would have been difficult, which meant that designing their own tank was necessary. As a result, they designed a 30ton Tank which was the great grandfather of the Panzer 58. This was first shown by me a few days ago in my article about the Swiss tanks, mainly the unknown projects.
The 30t Tank, the Great grandfather of the Panzer 58
This vehicle sadly never made it even though it would have been a mobile, well-protected medium tank with a big punch.
30 tons, with a 600hp engine, having a front hull with 65mm of armour at a 65° angle which additionally is sloped backwards to create a pikenose, very likely influenced by the IS-3s design. The turret armour is not listed at the front but from the blueprints measures out as about 200mm and 270mm at the gun mantlet.
In addition, it gets 4 guns which give it it’s punchy nature:
-a 90mm L/62
-a 90mm L/70
-a 105mm L/53
-a 105mm L/60
There is some confusion over the layout of the vehicles as it appears only a single hatch is visible in the turret over the breech which would be a very inconvenient location for the whole crew to use. From that blueprint we have a rather squashed front position for two crew, one driver and the other presumably being the radio operator in a sort of ‘lean-forward’ position which would have been very uncomfortable but helps keep the dimensions of the vehicle very small. As it stands I have never seen any mention at all of any development from any German project let alone the Indien Panzer specifically. This 30t Panzer design though never left this stage of development and was subjected to refinement until it became the KW30/52 which is the first official KW30 design.
Well these are the only pictures known so far of this vehicle and I haven’t yet found the blueprints either but this is what is known so far:
Weight: 30 tonnes, with an engine producing 600hp, later improved to 800hp giving it between 20 and 26.7 hp/t.
A document of mine mentions that due to the low weight of the tank it’s armour would have been rather poor with the turret at 70mm frontal, 45mm thick sides and 35mm thick rear and the hull thinned down to just 60mm frontal (albeit sloped well), 45mm thick sides and 35mm rear. This tank design as functional as it may well have been was no use as we already had a couple hundred AMX 13 tanks, which were already badly armoured, so another weakly armoured tank was not desirable.
A military officer, therefore, proposed to increase its weight by 10 tonnes and to give it better armour but so far I have not located the details of this plan or the drawing. It is on my next archive shopping list though for this mystery ‘KW40’. I will obviously let Rita and you guys know if and when I located this vehicle.
Going further there was eventually a second prototype of the KW 30.
which already looked a lot like the Panzer 58 most of you know.
This previously unseen image is of this second KW30 vehicle being towed by a Swiss M.47 Patton which had been purchased for evaluation.
Up close on this vehicle we can see the absence of a cupola, the presence of armoured side skirts and that the 6 smaller road wheels are closer together.
This vehicle is often referred to the Panzer 58 First Prototype and this is where WG starts to become unravelled.
Firstly there were just 12 Panzer 58s built. One of which had a 90mm gun, the second one had a 20pdr gun, and the last 10 vehicles had the 105mm L7 gun. (One tank with a 90mm, just one, a single vehicle. ONLY one. Not TWO)
It was prototype one which had the 90mm gun and is the very vehicle in the last two photographs.What WG has done is to create a fake hybrid of the Panzer 58 second prototype hull and turret, with the gun model of the Indienpanzer and the Panzer 58 first prototype in mind. But this vehicle as they showed NEVER EXISTED. It is made up.
Panzer 58 First Prototype used the 90mm and was built in about 1955/56 which is also when Switzerland purchased some Centurion Tanks from the United Kingdom which was equipped with the 20pdr gun. In order to make any logistic work as easy as possible, it was decided to use the 20pdr gun for the Panzer 58 as well to keep the same spare parts and ammo for both the Centurions and the Panzer 58s and thus the 20pdr was mounted on the Panzer 58 second prototype hull and turret.
Panzer 58 second prototype with the 20 pdr gun located in Thun
I don’t actually blame WG for that mistake, as they just had none yet to do the research and thus assumed the hull and turret looked like the same as the second prototype located in Thun, which was used as the reference.
The same goes for the armour, which brings me to my second complaint. The armour on the side of the hull behind the storage boxes was 40mm thick in real life and not the 30mm as WG made us believe. The front of the hull is also slightly off (not so much as to make any meaningful difference) and the turret sides are also thicker in real life too. In a nutshell:
Panzer 58 Programme:
Panzer 30t mit 9cm L/62
Panzer 30t mit 9cm L/70
Panzer 30t mit 10.5cm L/53
Panzer 30t mit 10.5cm L/60
KW30/52
KW40?
KW30/ Panzer 58 First Prototype mit 9cm
Panzer 58 Second Prototype 58 mit 20pdr
Basically, if WG would change the ‘Mutz’ to its historical form you would get a better-armored version of the tank with side-skirts, one turret tumour less and potentially worse ground resistance due to the higher ground pressure. In addition, the Swiss tech tree would lose a tank for the future tree and I don’t want that. Basically WG made a series of errors in the Pz.58 Mutz and created some kind of fake tank as a premium. Fine, they made it and made their errors; I now am working hard to prevent them ruining any further Swiss vehicles with preventable mistakes.
Well, that’s it again for now. Since I’ve got some help now I should get a lot more information soon for maybe another article as we work towards a fleshed out Swiss tree. To do this we need the support of you guys out there. Ask WG about a Swiss tree, pester them for it and push for it. I do not want Swiss tanks in some German tech tree, we aren’t Germans we are Swiss and WG is really annoying some Swiss players with the idea that Swiss vehicles will just go into the already large German tree. As I go through the tree with these articles hopefully it will become clear that the Swiss can and should be given a full tree in World of Tanks. We are not some backwater nation unknown to tank fans and historians, we too have our iconic tanks as some very capable tanks to be added to this game.
I think it makes sense to have a “European line” for the miscellany that occurred around Europe. Swiss, Italian, Polish, Czech, etc..
What i don’t understand is why WarGaming didn’t just make this a Swiss premium in the first place. Seriously. Even if it was the only Swiss tank to ever appear in the game, with a tank crew that could never move, with a unique premium consumable, I’m absolutely certain it would’ve sold like crazy.
Because a singular premium tank without the promise of a full tech tree behind it is useless. You have no crew trainer etc…
Agreed, it’s why i have no interest in the polish ship in WOWS. I’m not polish, and you know they won’t get a line.
People bought Type 59s back in the days like there was no tomorrow, even if the Chinese tree was nothing but a vague distant promise. it made good money and was a good tank to play. You don’t need a tree to make the tank worth buying.
For a lot of people even a vague promise is better then nothing. It still made a difference.
And the Type59 was really good in the beginning. Imagine how overpowered you have to make a tank to sell, knowing there will never be another use for it.
type 59 says hello, it was the only chinese tank for 2-3 years
Yes it was, but it was announced very early there would be a full tree. That means you can have a fully trained crew for when that tree was released. That is a bit different from having a tank with a crew you know you are never going to use for anything else…
So there’s a point in a one tank nation?
We have a few tanks, depending on how we arrange the tanks we will have a med line with the possibility of having 1-3 tier 10 meds, TD line and SPG line with scouts up to tier 8 (10).
Fair enough. But if developing this will mean fixing the game will take longer – beware all supporters of the Swiss tree, I will haunt your ass.
uhm you know there are differnet compartements for different things, in fact the swiss tree hasn’t evne been approved yet, as you might know, the swedish tanks come by the end of the year, if the swiss would be approved it’s gonna take at least 1 year, so december 2017 would be the earlierst date for any swiss vehicle.
But all that doesn’t really matter since the departement that make those new nations, tanks etc. are not responsible for the global rebalance or any other fixes, that would be the balance departement
This was fascinating, thanks for the article! I really hope that someone at WG manages to see this.
I think it would be awesome for premium tanks that are dual nation. (Exp. Ram 2 and T14) That are Canadian based under USA tree. Have people and food for canadian tank if you want. But can also train USA crews as well. So it doesn’t take away the option. I 100 percent agree that the 58 should definitely be on a Swiss or joint tree instead. So possibly a way to change current premium vehicle.
Errr… T14 isn’t Canadian…. its a Brit/US joint project… And Honestly, I like the 58 Mutz where it is now.
well it’s not like wg would change anything about the mutz, i mean, they didn’t change the T-25 it’d stay in the german tech tree and pop up occasionally.
“highly secretive banking system”
Not anymore 🙂
As a quickfix to this utterly unbearable situation, I propose switching the Mutz to Chinese Tech Tree 😛
great article but come on..”neutral country” which helpfully stored gold, artworks etc. stolen across europe by nazi germany? please tell us more fairytales about swiss neutrality… and you wonder why is swiss vehicle in german tech tree..
great article but come on.. “neutral country” which helpfully stored gold, artworks etc. stolen across europe by nazi germany? and you wonder why is swiss vehicle in german tech tree.. no more “swiss neutrality” BS please
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/714/256/eb4.jpg
Looking forward to read about the mysterious Kw40!
i love it how people think they can claim something should be a certain way when they are dealing with WG. the game is theirs, so are all the mistakes and bugs. you see people cooking up entire tech trees for different nations and what not. historical accuracy seldom works in a game and certainly not in wot.
Btw the VK45.03 is in the EU shop now
ADD THE SWISS LINE!!!!!!
I’m sure WG will move the Pz. 58 to the Swiss tree and exchange the 90mm to a 20pdr with better or the exact same stats.
Im going to say its unlikely they will ever touch a premium even if it is unhistorical. Look at the german t25, that thing still has unhistorical stats and it was not removed or moved to a different tree.
We will simply have to wait untill we get a Swiss tree to see a real Pz.58, and i would expect the “german” one to be removed from the shop once that happens.
They should just change the gun to the 20-pdr and call it a day instead of fully reworking it to the first prototype. Fear of losing it for the tech tree is fairly ungrounded.
Skoda T-25 got into the Czech tree despite being in the German tree as Pz T-25 (or just T-25 for years). The Chinese tech tree got WZ-120 despite the fact that it’s the same thing as Type 59, and WZ-131 and Type 62 say hi as well. And let’s not forget the various French and British lowtier tanks that are in the German and Soviet tech tree, of which most have counterparts in the ‘right’ trees now.
Well, you have the real T25 so who gives a crap at this point really.
If there was ever any chance they’d move Premium tanks between Tech Trees, they’d have moved the Ram years ago. Fair enough, when it was first released, there was no UK/Commonwealth Tech Tree, but there is now, but there it still is, on the US Tech Tree.
Good point
The Ram was still made on the North American Continent, so there is an argument to be made in keeping it where it is, at least until a proper Commonwealth branch can be added to the British tree. Even then, we will probably see a clone, like the Sherman III or the Czechoslovakian lights. Heck, look at the Skota and Pz T-25. Same tank, different tree.
The British tree is the British tree, not the commonwealth tree.
“But Sentinel” Hush. Recycling existing techtrees is convenient and the precise location of the tanks really is irrelevant. If BT-42 would be a soviet tank, I’d be completely fine with that because it makes things easier, despite the tank being from us Finns, the Soviets being our favorite ENEMY, and the gun being British.
Premiums in general at this point are pointless, harness every workhorse available to fixing the game, dammit.
The Rudy is said to be transferred to the Polish tree. I guess you are right. I’ll wait and see.
It is being considered, but honestly I don’t see it happen.
Interesting article. However, could those watermarks be made bigger and brighter? They are getting obscured by some tanks. Also I am sure watermarks are incorrectly used as author of article is not author of those photos and as such, watermark shouldn’t be present at all or it should represent original creator/copyright owner. (would be likely fun tracking it down)
They’re probably dead.
” to see our neutral country lumped in which a country we classed as a threat during the War.”
Really…are u so old-fashioned?
Post-war Germany isn’t the same as Nazi Germany. The Swiss and Germans weren’t enemies at the time during the Cold War. During WWII, the Swiss even gave them some equipment in the form of vehicles.
Looking at from a post-war perspective, there is some merit to being in the German tech tree.
So your Swiss friends were not happy about their “neutral” country being lumped into the German tech tree? I think they fit just fine in with the Germans per this – http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/two-views_looking-back-at-the-holocaust-assets-controversy/36756580
so you’re complaining that bankers were corupted enough to horde the money of the survivors of the holocaust. First of all are corrupt bankers nothing new, and second: do you want ot compare the average citizen back then and the military with the government? you’re comparing the innocent with the corrupt people, makes no sense at all.
i dont see any interest in a swiss line,few tanks,most likely only meds and most of the top tiers would just be panzer 58 derrived tanks,bigger and better but not very unique,i would like to see larger tech trees like the swedes or italians,plus i dont think that swiss tanks had ever seen action,in a real fight not just in a firing range…
Interesting article, but do not be ridiculous :
“which is one of the better Premium vehicles they’ve added so far” …. pfff
“which is one of the better Premium vehicles they’ve added so far” …. pfff
Why can’t just WG uses the same tech tree as what Armored Warfare did ?. It’s just make things easier when they don’t have research for the whole new tech tree from scratch. It’s just anoyi9ng that they just posponed some vehicle release just because there’s no tank to fill some tier in certain nation.
I’m okay without it. I would rather want a nation with a few tanks to be implemented into a bigger tree.
well while some people may think that way, i’m sure that a lot of people that come from those nations get pissed off about that statement, that’s the main reason i bother with all of this, same with the italians, you could easily throw them into the german tree without problems, it would just piss off 95% of all italians, same iwht the swiss, and i know a lot of canadians that are pissed off because of hte RAM II being in the americna tech tree.
but i’m not juding you, nor do i wish to attack you, i completely accept the way you thinkl about that. However it won’t stop me from developing a fully fleshed out tehc tree 😉
I fully support more tech tree don’t get me wrong. I’m currently in the process of making a Romanian tech tree with archival material from Bucharest and Pitesti. It might or might not work since there are not enough tanks to work with for right now.
Pitesti has some classified documents that need declassiying and we may find some stuff.
If not we can present to WG a bunch of future premiums or possibly a small low tier German branch that can reach up to tier 5 or 6.
When I said “I can live without it”, I meant a mixed tech tree with a bunch of tanks from different nations
I want to experience tanks from other nations such as the Swedes, Italians, Israelis, Romanian, Hungarian, etc
hm nice, let me know if you find anything, i might be able to hook you up with WG devs, i’ll be happy to support anyone anywhere i can.
Thanks! I would really appreciate it. I’ll let you know if me and my colleagues find anything. Anyways to contact you when we refine our tech tree with archival information?
*Any way of contacting you?
uhm you could contact me on this account, should work, and then we can look at maybe exchanging skype contacts
You state, ” I now am working hard to prevent them [WG] ruining any further Swiss vehicles with preventable mistakes.”
Seriously, MIZUTAYIO, you have laid the foundation for a great book on Swiss tank development that many people would enjoy having.
Please, I encourage you to pursue it as much as possible, and find associates who can assist you further and even get you a suitable publisher.
I want ask did WG will give Mutz to sell again ? I will buy it but it not available 🙁
If THIS is your primary concern about World of Tanks… I don’t know what to say, really. It makes me speechless.
“We are not some backwater nation unknown to tank fans and historians” Except you’re not Germany, Britain, France, US, Japan or USSR, meaning you are exactly that. Welcome to the club.
not my primary, the original article wasn’0t like that, a friend of mine ( vollketten) “refined it” but to be honest, i’d prefer to see arty rebalance first and the global rebalance in general, not to mention the MM fix, , but it’d take at least one and half a year for the first swiss vehicle to come to WoT so the fixing would ( should ) happen long before that.
It would take more then 18 months to make any new tree, since the work on Swedish tree is underway with end of the year deadline and as far as WG info goes Polish tree might be the next one to go, depending on how the search for high tiers goes. Swiss tree is problematic the other way around, very little stuff to fill low tiers.
There is only so much you can do fill the gaps, and without at least one proper 1-X line there is no chance to implement anything. That is why so far Polish tree is iffy, same with Italians, and there has been speculations about Hungary and Yugoslavian trees that was pretty much ended by WG due to the same problems.
Mutz as it is might not be historical, but then again there is little historical about this game, and changing prems is highly unlikely.
comments like that really make me go: ” If you only knew” If you only knew how many tanks switzerland actually has to offer. And if you only knew how far italy really is in terms of having a full tech tree ready for development. i am not a random guy on the internet going to the archives doing research, i am damn well connected and i know of a lot of tech trees and single branches being developed.
Not trying to look down on you, don’t get me wrong, i know how easy it is so assume.
Who writes this shit?! My 7 year old niece has better grammar than this!
Update for blog? we have 12th June already…. :p
While it is annoying for you that the tank is in the German line, I find your comment regarding the neutrality of the Swiss and the threat of the Nazis to that neutrality incorrect, as it has been proven that the Swiss were complicit in the aiding of Nazis with the smuggling of large quantities of gold and other valuables right up to the end of the war. One of the many interesting articles to read: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html
While it is annoying for you that the tank is in the German line, I find your comment regarding the neutrality of the Swiss and the threat of the Nazis to that neutrality incorrect, as it has been proven that the Swiss were complicit in the aiding of Nazis with the smuggling of large quantities of gold and other valuables plundered throughout Europe right up to the end of the war. One of the many interesting articles to read: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html
I was thinking just the same Timto, I hope she is fine.
Why should we belive this guy and not wg regarding the armour of the tank? Does he measured with his fingertoes or how?
Remember how wg measured fv4202? I don’t belive this guy at all regarding armour.
Anyway in reality armour on some tanks differed from the paper design…see the russian tanks.
well unlike WG, i do make tripüs to the swiss archives. and i think we can all agree that the archives don’t lie unlike WG, m8 just as an advice, don’t trust anythign wg tells you, it comes from peronal experience, they lie about a lot.
You sound whiney. Be happy that there is a swiss tank at all. WoT is WW2-based game and Switzerland didn’t play a role in it beside hording gold and letting axis logistics cross the alps… So welcome to the german tree… (just an opposite point of view, no offense meant)
World of Tanks is certainly not a WWII game. While it does have a lot of tanks from the war, the game is a early to mid 20th century armored vehicle fighting game.
While they were minor, they had some role. I don’t see why we should waste perfectly good tanks that people would enjoy playing because it never fought in WWII. I guess we should remive the Leopard I
idk why ppl give so much about this, let it be in german tech tree no problems would appear
Thanks a lot for ruining photos by adding, unnecesarily, your stupid nickname on them… What was the point on that? Getting credit on pictures you didn’t take?
true that
While I can appreciate your comments regarding the tank being put in the German tech tree, what I do find odd is the comments regarding the Nazis as a threat. It is well documented that the Swiss were complicit in the laundering of gold and valuables looted by the Nazis throughout Europe, right up until the end of the war.
Rita, is your Type 97 Te-Ke glitched too? Mine is missing the gun mantlet
Will need to check dear, just arrived home from 3 days of tanking and camping, knackered but got so many footage for you!
Well do check it soon, it’s freaking me out
Let see that :
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/535543-larbre-suisse-dans-wot/#topmost
[…] Here is the Link to the Article […]
[…] to even get a custom Drawing made for it. There also is an earlier post on RsR so go check it out here. However to put things simple: It basically is a T20, practically no armor (70mm frontally at most, […]